Thoughts about Mechitza?
2 weeks ago our rosh yeshiva, Rabbi Linzer, spoke to us about a particular incident that he had to deal with in regards to the mechitza in our minyan (prob. the particular incident is not suppose to be public knowledge). After these sort of talks we break up into small groups to discuss these real life issues. I learned something that caught me very off guard. I have just always assumed that the less "obtrusive" the mechitza the more comfortable most women will feel at a minyan or shul . I learned that I was way off.
About a month ago there were 3 days when the Columbia/Barnard Hillel minyan was not running, so many of them joined our minyan. A student in my group mentioned that he had overheard a number of the women who had joined us temporarily in the YCT minyan saying "If i can avoid it, I'm never davening in this minyan again. I dont like the fact that men can look at us during davening etc." They did not like the fact that our mechitza is "low" (about shoulder high) and that it is pretty see through. I don't think guys were staring at them or anything, but they said that they didn't like the fact that men could look at them in davening.
So there goes my conception that the ideal mechitza should always aim to be as unobtrusive as possible (both in terms of size and design) in order to make women feel comfortable. I guess if a woman grows up davening in a shul with a big mechitza then that is what one is use too and comfortable with.....it's not necessarily an intellectual matter (comfort etc.). Perhaps some women don't want to feel like a part of the minyan?
I'm assuming this emotional/non-intellectual relationship with mechitza because of my reationship with mechitza. I grew up davening in my parent's shul which had mixed seating and an "orthodox" rabbi. I never really gave much thought to the issue....I don't recall the presence of women distracting me.
Towards the end of my 2nd year of high school I started davening in a little local orthodox shul (the one where the retired rabbi of my parent's shul davens) with a standard mechitza down the middle. After davening in minyans with a mechitza for 4 years I was required to daven and speak in my parents shul for one of the chagim. They had given me a large scholarship to go to israel and the scholarship obligated me to speak at the shul. I felt very uncomfortale davening and was distracted. This was for several reasons and not only b/c of the "distraction" of women. One factor was that the seperation of the sexes had become something that I asscocated with davening. It was "the Jewish way" and my gut feeling (not intellectual) was that family pews was not the jewish way and it felt inauthentic.
[Sidenote: Family pews in shuls are understood by most historians to be an imitation of American protestant churches where the family pews phenomenon began. The first reform temples to have mixed seating were in America and then this phenomenon spread to some Temples in Germany and was even less common outside of Germany. ]
Also, there was the issue of the distraction of seeing women. This was never something that I had even thought of growing up, so I think my increase in "frumkeit" and the mechitza had and has sensitized me to being more easily distracted by women during davening. I certainly cannot daven in a minyan without a mechitza. This was not a conscious choice, but a result of davening in minyanim with mechitzas. I think that the mechitza served as a reminder 3 times a day that it is an issue and it eventually became an issue subconsciously. I have spoken to several guys who grew up davening in shuls with mixed seating who have experienced the same transformation.
I was also thinking that perhaps those students were offended by our minyan because once u try as hard as possile to make an in-offensive mechitza u are saying and reminding people that it's offensive. These mechitzas can be seen as condescending. Also, maybe a significant mechitza (especially the kind that are in the back of the shul) allow some woman to feel more comfortable because it allows them to feel like thay have their own service and not almost part of the congregation which is the message that a little mechitza can send. This was at least the feeling of a friend of mine who davened at the Yakar minyan who liked the mechtiza set up (mechitza in the back).
Can't forget about the women who grew up davening in shuls w/o mechitzas and can't stand it, but do it anyways b/c they're "orthodox" and those who avoid davening in a shul with a mechitza at all costs.
I would like to hear peoples' thoughts about this issue from an emotional (personal) and sociological perspective and not a halachic perspective. My speculation into how women feel about various mechitzas is just that ---specualtion. It maybe very off. The halachic argument is not what interests me here and I think that it is fitting for a different kind of forum ( I personally believe the issue is not primarily a halachic one).
About a month ago there were 3 days when the Columbia/Barnard Hillel minyan was not running, so many of them joined our minyan. A student in my group mentioned that he had overheard a number of the women who had joined us temporarily in the YCT minyan saying "If i can avoid it, I'm never davening in this minyan again. I dont like the fact that men can look at us during davening etc." They did not like the fact that our mechitza is "low" (about shoulder high) and that it is pretty see through. I don't think guys were staring at them or anything, but they said that they didn't like the fact that men could look at them in davening.
So there goes my conception that the ideal mechitza should always aim to be as unobtrusive as possible (both in terms of size and design) in order to make women feel comfortable. I guess if a woman grows up davening in a shul with a big mechitza then that is what one is use too and comfortable with.....it's not necessarily an intellectual matter (comfort etc.). Perhaps some women don't want to feel like a part of the minyan?
I'm assuming this emotional/non-intellectual relationship with mechitza because of my reationship with mechitza. I grew up davening in my parent's shul which had mixed seating and an "orthodox" rabbi. I never really gave much thought to the issue....I don't recall the presence of women distracting me.
Towards the end of my 2nd year of high school I started davening in a little local orthodox shul (the one where the retired rabbi of my parent's shul davens) with a standard mechitza down the middle. After davening in minyans with a mechitza for 4 years I was required to daven and speak in my parents shul for one of the chagim. They had given me a large scholarship to go to israel and the scholarship obligated me to speak at the shul. I felt very uncomfortale davening and was distracted. This was for several reasons and not only b/c of the "distraction" of women. One factor was that the seperation of the sexes had become something that I asscocated with davening. It was "the Jewish way" and my gut feeling (not intellectual) was that family pews was not the jewish way and it felt inauthentic.
[Sidenote: Family pews in shuls are understood by most historians to be an imitation of American protestant churches where the family pews phenomenon began. The first reform temples to have mixed seating were in America and then this phenomenon spread to some Temples in Germany and was even less common outside of Germany. ]
Also, there was the issue of the distraction of seeing women. This was never something that I had even thought of growing up, so I think my increase in "frumkeit" and the mechitza had and has sensitized me to being more easily distracted by women during davening. I certainly cannot daven in a minyan without a mechitza. This was not a conscious choice, but a result of davening in minyanim with mechitzas. I think that the mechitza served as a reminder 3 times a day that it is an issue and it eventually became an issue subconsciously. I have spoken to several guys who grew up davening in shuls with mixed seating who have experienced the same transformation.
I was also thinking that perhaps those students were offended by our minyan because once u try as hard as possile to make an in-offensive mechitza u are saying and reminding people that it's offensive. These mechitzas can be seen as condescending. Also, maybe a significant mechitza (especially the kind that are in the back of the shul) allow some woman to feel more comfortable because it allows them to feel like thay have their own service and not almost part of the congregation which is the message that a little mechitza can send. This was at least the feeling of a friend of mine who davened at the Yakar minyan who liked the mechtiza set up (mechitza in the back).
Can't forget about the women who grew up davening in shuls w/o mechitzas and can't stand it, but do it anyways b/c they're "orthodox" and those who avoid davening in a shul with a mechitza at all costs.
I would like to hear peoples' thoughts about this issue from an emotional (personal) and sociological perspective and not a halachic perspective. My speculation into how women feel about various mechitzas is just that ---specualtion. It maybe very off. The halachic argument is not what interests me here and I think that it is fitting for a different kind of forum ( I personally believe the issue is not primarily a halachic one).
posted by Gatos Hombre at 6:26 PM
10 Comments:
You know the saying, "Two Jews, three opinions"? Well, I think the same applies to how Jewish women feel about mechitzot. Personally, I prefer a side-by-side mechitza that one can see over (between waist and shoulder-high). I don't care that much, in such a scenario, if I can see *through* it. If it's a balcony, I like it to be as low as possible and as translucent as possible. The worst (besides a separate room with a hole high up in the wall--I've been there, davened that), is a balcony with a trellis-like pattern (or anything with a lot of small holes), because looking through that is positively nauseating.
Yah, it makes sense that those places in Israel where there is a solid wall w/ a little bit of space btw the wall and ceiling serve more as places for men to catch up when they come late than actually as an ezrat nashim.
But I'm still curious why one would rather be in a shul where there is a mechitza down the middle rather than a balcony where the woman have a clear view. I would find it annoying having to look through anything. At Breur's, for example, there is nothing impeding sight (just 2 bars to make sure u don't fall off etc.), but it's a high balcony. I guess that the advantage to the mechitza down the middle is that one may feel like more of a part of the tzibur (congregation).
I guess we could also ask: "what is there to look at during davening?". Aren't we suppose to be davening? I know that i try to daven and look at my siddur as much as I can, but sometimes u relax or can't concentrate and u become a "spectator". Presumably it's better to be a spectator of the service than concentrating or looking at other things.
Hatam Soferet,
I would like to start off by typing that I enjoy discourse with you. Now that I've typed that, I will respond to your comments.
spending time with them will cause erections
-come on, no one thinks that - no one
perfectly ordinary boys are conditioned to make crude remarks about women
-Ha! I'm not sure where one might find these "perfectly ordinary boys" that don't make crude remarks about women, but it's nice to know that you think they exist. It's clear you've never been a boy before, as it comes rather naturally - whether one is in a yeshiva or not, BT yeshiva or FFB yeshiva or not. Especially since by the time of, oh let's say 20, most guys (and by most I really mean all - I think) have made some sort of joke about women, so it's definitely not the socializing in BT yeshivot that are the cause of such behavior.
the message "women impede davening because they are sexy" seems decidedly unhealthy
-Whoa, grrl. Welcome to a man's world. Unless, of course, they are ugly or somehow unattractive - then that might mitigate the whole sexiness thing. Unhealthy it may seem to your gynocentric perspective, welcome to a man's view on the matter.
Don't you find it at all disturbing that your davening environment has taught you to view women as inspirers of sexual excitement rather than as people like yourself?
-Gee, you'd think he made it seem as if it was solely the davening environment which was to blame that taught him to "view women as inspirers of sexual excitement"! That's absurd - women - from an androcentric perspective (and we are men, so it is fair) - do inspire sexual excitement. Maybe sometimes not sexual, per se, maybe just aesthetic excitement. Women are also people - that's true, I have no problem admitting it - but you should have already learnt by now that from a man's perspective, women are exciting, even if not from a woman's perspective.
Thanks. "Boys will be boys."
Yaaahhh....Right on Black Herring. What u said is basically my "issue" with mechitza and the like. You don' hear rabbis say "Women are objects or just inspirers of sexual excitement", but that often is the result of mechitza combined with other factors that are prevalent in many orthodox circles. These other factors include lack of contact with women and the fact that women are often a "subject" of Torah study. This combination of factors combine to de-humanize women in the eyes of men...I don't think this is purposeful, but it is the end result.
I thank my sister who visted me in my 2nd year in Israel for inspiring me to re-evaluate many matters. Her experience of travelling to teh airport to Jerusalem made me realize the efefcts of ones thoughts about women in teh environent that I was learning in. She took a sherut from the airport and when she got on it there was only one seat left which was next to two black hat Israeli yeshiva bachurim. She know that it would not be "good" to sit near them, but she had no choice. Keep in mind that she was well covered..winter jacket and all.
The young man who she sat next to started talking to his friend about how uncomfortable he was feeling and how he could not concentrate or distract himself from "hirhurim" (bad thoughts). Hi s friend tried to distract him with "learning", but this did not work and he said that he could not concentrate. Meanwhile he started to shake his leg (bumpings hers). The worst part about it was that my sister speaks fluent hebrew. This secular guy realized taht the situation was not good and offered my sister his seat. The secular guys said "I apologize, but u know he's religious" and she said "I know, but it doesn't have to be this way.
This kind of excitement which
this young man experienced would most likely have not taken place if he would have had even minimal contact with women. The system that he grew up in had sociallized him to essentially conceive women just as objects of the yetzer horah. The result was that as my sister told me "I have been made into a chefetz ra'ah (a bad object)by his religion".
By the time my sister had come to visit me i had already been learning for over a year in a charedi insititution. Even though i fought much of the hashkafic aspects tooth and nail (was there for the intensive gemara learning), I had absorbed a lot of their rhetoric.
At one point I spoke to a rabbi about my sense that I am that much more "excited" around women. He said, "it's because you're learning Torah with such intensity. It heightens the senses and even the power of the yetzer horah". Nooooo... It may heighten the senses (who knows), but the cause of the increase in excitement around women was my environment(little contact with them) and the things that I heard constantly being said about them.
After this incident I realized that respect for tzniut (modesty) and differentiation in gender attitudes taken to the extreme in this cultural context does the opposite of what its proponents claim is the goal of this ideology. They claim that these restrictions and boundaries are in order to prevent the objectification of women and to respect them, but when carried to the extreme it results in the opposite of what they claim that they hope their policies will achieve.
A month later I started learning at Hamivtar and I'm still "recovering" and struggling with these issues. U can't go into a tannery and not come out stinky. I thought that I was "strong", but apparently I'm not that strong.
It was probably not the best idea to immerse myself only in learning (14 hours a day 12 hours for gemara) and attempt to shelter myself or ignore hashkafic issues. This is not healthy or feasible.
The slippery slope from gender matters and recognizing "realities" to dehumanizing the other is a tricky issue.
Oh, and Blackherring--thanks for taking the bait on your board. I did not know who u were until this morning but based on your journal I thought that u would be exactly the kind of person that I would like to post on my board and especially on this topic. Best comment yet.
Thank you,
Now make fun of me or destroy me etc.!!!!!!!!
Drew thanks for bringing up the next issue that I thought would "rile some feathers". Men do see women as sexy/exciting.
One of my fellow yeshiva students understands the need for mechitza b/c of the distraction issue... "And it's hard enough to comtemplate an abstract God and concentrate in davening anyways etc". He said this after hearing my blog. Another student responded "Oh come on, grow up, and get over it".
I don't think that a person can just "grow up". It is a reality which is shared by women too. Each gender gets excited by the opposite gender. I cannot ascertain if this is more true for either one.
Presumably, the reason for the traditional architecture of shuls (where men can less easily get distracted) is that the reality is that men are the center and most important part of tefilah betzibbur (public prayer) in orthodox/traditional minyanim. Also, i think that there is the unrealistic conception that women are not sexual or can "control themselves".
Uhh ohhhhh, I just alluded to another issue (men as center of tefila betzibur). Should this necessarily be so?....Shhhhhhh. Lets maybe try to make that a seperate blog or something.
It's different when you're on the receiving end of a crude remark which was made in all seriousness and the owner
doesn't realise that he's said anything which might be the slightest bit offensive. Perhaps you've never noticed the
difference.
-Perhaps I've never noticed the difference? Perhaps I've never experienced it to be aware of it. Plus, I usually will try to understand their perspective and be dan lkhaf zkhus about their comment and that they didn't mean to be offensive.
I know plenty of boys who are perfect gentlemen and respectful of everybody. I'm sorry you don't.
-That wasn't the point I was making. I was speaking about in the sense of making jokes, not people who are nice to others. And I wouldn't say that I don't know any gentlemanly guys.
W got lucky.
I suppose he did. Most guys can't say that their wives are attracted to other women.
If I'm in shul sitting right behind an extremely attractive butt, that's my problem, not hers.
-It's funny you should mention this issue, as I have mentioned it previously.
there's no suggestion that men should sit away from women so that they can concentrate
-Though in certain segments of the Jewish world - for instance, the Haredi world and RW MO - they do sit away, albeit without the concentration bit.
Honestly, as a future convert, I wouldn't mind my own personal mechitza. Literally, please build one around me so that I will not be distracted by those speed praying, by the men peering up to the balcony seating and the like.
Gentleman or no, every human being I'm sure can be accused of saying or thinking something inappropriate about the opposite sex. Most of us just try to think it, not say it.
I think about how people tell me that they feel sometimes that shul can be a "meat market" and I cannot imagine how you can pray when you feel that you're being checked out as a marriage prospect. I can't imagine how anyone can pray around anyone mildly attractive. I know that I certainly could not do it. Call me weak but oh well.
Back to the first point, I find that the separation does not bother me as I thought it would. I have spoken to Reform Jews and Conversative Jews who are used to mixed seating and so they find the whole thing medieval but seriously, while I do not neccessarily agree with the way that boys and girls are kept as arm's length never to befriend each other properly in a way that shows them that they're both pretty similar in many ways, I have no problem with any sort of mechitza. The point is to pray, right? So do just that and pray.
Honestly, I'm going to create my own portable mechitza so that people will stop looking at me, female and male, while I'm davening at the rate of snails.
Blackherring, I don't know about the perfect gentleman part (actually definitely not), but Drew does know a person who has never made a crude remark about sexy women (at least no re-collection)--and that's me heehee!!
Thank u mommy and daddy...just not something that i was raised to do and I always have thought negatively about friends and being among random people who do make those kind of crude remarks.
Someone i know who is homosexual has said that he gets distracted in a mixed-gender (a.k.a. gender-immaterial) davening environment because things simply "look wrong out of the corners of his eyes". He grew up davening on the male side of the mehhitza, and still usually does so, so when he's in a place where there are women around, the different shapes of their bodies make him do double-takes with his vision. it's not that he's attracted to them, he's just distracted by the fact that the environment [=the people in it] is "built differently".
people still read this blog?
Post a Comment
<< Home